Taking Back Feminism

I identified myself very firmly as a feminist once upon a time. I was in sixth grade, the time was the early 1970’s, and I could see what feminism was accomplishing for women, and I could see myself fighting that fight.

That was, of course, before NOW, the National Organization of Wackos, lost all sight of what feminism is and decided it was a platform for defending and even lauding child murderers like Andrea Yates, pushing an anti-male agenda in favor of female separatism and endless wails of ‘down with patriarchy’, and cheering deadly cults like Falun Gong which encourages women and children to immolate themselves in protest of repression, and which has been responsible for mass suicides and family murders.

Feminism, real feminism, is about women sharing the world with men, being equal partners with men, having equal rights and receiving equal pay for equal work. And that’s pretty much it. It does not denigrate motherhood in favor of careerism — it supports choices. It does not encourage lesbianism while claiming that women who choose male lifemates are traitors to the cause. It supports choices. It sure as shit doesn’t claim that women like Andrea Yates are cautionary tales for all women who are mothers, one of those ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ examples of how risky motherhood is to your sanity, as if having kids damaged your brain, destroyed your capacity to judge right from wrong, and might just turn you into a murderer in spite of yourself; real feminism never portrayed murderers as victims, and never encouraged anyone to look at women as weak, helpless slaves to their hormones.

I’ve had enough. I say it’s time we — the sane women of America and the men who love us — reclaim feminism from the lunatics who are currently tarnishing it. I say we stand up and say to NOW, “Your vision of feminism has nothing to do with what most American women believe or want. We don’t want to live in a world without men, we don’t want to live in a world with men in subjugation, and we don’t want to live in a world where idiots like you are trying to destroy all the gains we’ve made by claiming we’re too weak and fragile and helpless to make intelligent decisions or to take responsibility for our actions. WE ARE NOT VICTIMS. We are women, and we can stand on our own two feet, and take our knocks, and keep right on going. All we want is an equal (not preferential, just equal, thank you) hand in the poker game with a clean deck of cards. We’ll take it from there.”

Care to join me?

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30 responses to “Taking Back Feminism”

  1. Holly Lisle Avatar
    Holly Lisle

    Just out of curiosity, do you think NOW is useful in protecting Roe v. Wade, or do you think that fight has been won, give up the ghost and move on?

    Neither. I think that when you have to cite a court case instead of a law to describe how things are done, your process is seriously fucked up.

    Roe v. Wade was a case of an activist court overstepping its jurisdiction and creating law rather than ajudicating existing law. As such, I think it needs to be overturned, and the process run through correctly — as a legislative process that permits the votes of the citizenry and that is thus representative of what the people of the country want, and not what a handful of elitist judges think we should have.

  2. Jess Avatar

    Just out of curiosity, do you think NOW is useful in protecting Roe v. Wade, or do you think that fight has been won, give up the ghost and move on?

  3. weaselboy Avatar

    I’m new here, so as you can imagine, the title of this article gave me the wrong impression. To be honest, I thought it was going to be something even more femi-nazi then the NOW. However, just to see what you had to say, I read… then I reached this part: "That was, of course, before NOW, the National Organization of Wackos, lost all sight of what feminism is and decided it was a platform for defending and even lauding child murderers like Andrea Yates, pushing an anti-male agenda in favor of female separatism and endless wails of ‘down with patriarchy’, and cheering deadly cults like Falun Gong which encourages women and children to immolate themselves in protest of repression, and which has been responsible for mass suicides and family murders.

    Feminism, real feminism, is about women sharing the world with men, being equal partners with men, having equal rights and receiving equal pay for equal work. And that’s pretty much it."

    Let me just tell you, that makes a good day, better. I’m glad there are still some people in this world who don’t associate feminism with femi-nazis. I, being a guy, am naturally disgusted by the whole "women’s power" the NOW has going (is any male in favor of it?) and like to see people support EQUALITY, not domination.

    Thanks for that nice article, I enjoyed it. ๐Ÿ™‚

  4. Holly Avatar

    “I’ll agree with what you said Holly, except, well, what about women who don’t want to be mothers?”

    As I said above, real feminism was about standing on an even footing with men, having the right to make choices. One of those choices is the right to not have children, to not be a mother, to pursue a career exclusively if that’s your choice.

    As for what people say …. well, people, especially relatives, are going to say anything. They want you to live in the future they see for you. But so long as you aren’t forced into that future, what they say is nothing but a minor irritant. (Okay, maybe a major irritant. But not the end of the world.)

  5. MariaB Avatar

    I’ll agree with what you said Holly, except, well, what about women who don’t want to be mothers?
    Every time I say this, I get the "Oh you’ll want children someday," response. I’m thirty-two. I’m married to the Army. Me bringing a child into this world would be cruelty to an unborn infant. And yet I feel like a freak of nature for believing this, especially with the mass media’s obsession with motherhood.

  6. Tia Avatar

    I’m with you. I have long thought that NOW feminists are anti-woman. They are anti-motherhood and anti-marriage, two things that should matter most to women.

  7. Linda Avatar

    I’m with you, Holly. I could have written that essay as it pretty much mirrors my experience.

  8. Holly Avatar

    The Nazis are useful when invoking the demons of intolerance and claiming virtue for the other side, but in this instance, I think they’re misapplied. As noted, I do not agree with the way China is dealing with this cult, but I stand by my research. It IS a cult, and it is far from harmless.

  9. About Falun Gong Avatar
    About Falun Gong

    Sorry to avoid the main topic of your post but I felt I had to say something about the comments about Falun Gong.

    Falun Gong is very simple. It is a type of Qi Gong (Chi Kung) which consists of five exercises and some spiritual teachings. It is harmless and has benefitted many people.

    All information about the practise is available on the internet for free and people can practise just as easily at home on their own as they can in groups in the park.

    Falun Gong is being severely persecuted and this persecution is driven by one man who holds the power to do so. It is inevitable then that propaganda is a major tool. Most people don’t believe they are bad or evil but can deceive themselves or be deceived into thinking that what they are doing is right. The Chinese-media with connections to mainland China is broadcasting this propaganda all across the world.

    The immolations, suicides and murders you mentioned are examples of this propaganda. There is an order passed down from Jiang Zemin (Ex-Chinese Head of the Communist Party and the force behind the persecution) to treat all Falun Gong related deaths as suicides. Many of these "suicides" occured in police custody and the bodies were cremated immediately afterwards with families of the deceased knowing nothing about it until afterwards. There was a staged immolation on Tiananmen Square in 2001 involving five people (which mysteriously increased to seven a week later). The official government footage of the event has many flaws including a man in what looks like a fireproof suit and a woman who was killed when a policeman hit her on the back of the head. You can see this for yourself and read further at:


    I have been practising Falun Gong for over four years and feel that I have benefitted from it. I have no extravagant claims for you. I am 23 years old and healthy so I have received no miracle cures but I have friends who have become more healthy through practise. I find the teachings of Falun Gong to make good sense and I try to apply them to my daily life.

    Please read more about this. Misinformation is a powerful weapon. The Nazis used this weapon against the Jews, and now it is being used again against Falun Gong.

    http://www.amnesty.org/ (search for Falun)
    http://www.hrw.org/ (search for Falun)

    P. Michael Holland

  10. Holly Avatar

    Quick note for Jim on Falun Gong, also called Falun Dafa — if it looks like a cult, and quacks like a cult, and flies like a cult, I’d say it’s a cult. In re: the Chinese government’s response to it — well, the old saw about the broken clock being right twice a day might have some bearing here, even if I don’t agree with their methods of dealing with the cult. I remember Jim Jones and the Jonestown massacre way too vividly to let this one just slide. It has the same stink to it.


    And a very long list of links, including those to cult murders, cult suicides, etc.:

  11. Lelia Katherine Thomas Avatar
    Lelia Katherine Thomas

    I totally agree. I also have a pet peeve of how [some] women have decided they can’t just be equal to men; they must be better. From my high school perspective (does that disqualify my comment automatically, lol?), I notice a lot of guys letting girls take the lead. They don’t even want to be equal. Their thought is: "Hey, if Miss Priss wants to control the wheel, we’ll let her have the whole damn eighteen-wheeler." It seems that the guys of my generation at least are perfectly satisfied with letting women take the workload. Great. Just what we need. Lazy, baggy-pants-wearing, smokers and dealers. Again, this is only my generation (feel the love I have for them?).

    Again, I agree with you. Feminism was never about anyone being better. It was about being equal, standing side by side equally, and therefore, all the stronger. People just don’t see that now, haven’t for a while. It’s always a competition over a nonexistent finish line.

    What many women forget is though, yes, there were cruel and unfair things that women went through…it was the men that founded America and many other good countries. Women stood behind them, helping plenty of times, but without the strength and force of a man, our world would have crumbled long ago. Feminism was the opportunity to stand side by side instead of behind and before, but now the tables have just turned so many women stand in front of men. Too many women want limelight over love.

  12. Megan Avatar

    Thank you for saying that! I’m still a highschool student, and I can’t recall the number of times teachers have given me funny looks when I say Mother is my first career choice (wife, followed by mother, of course). It even beats out "writer," though I’ll keep doing that — just at a slower rate, I suspect. I’ve been chewed out for wanting to be a mom, told how I’d be wasting all my talents and knowledge and stuff. I can’t think of anything more challenging than raising a large family, or a job more important that being a good Mom. Can you?

    Men and women are different (don’t know why some people haven’t caught on). And I don’t think those differences are bad — perhaps they should be celebrated more often. I hate how society in general degrades motherhood. It’s really a very noble, sacrificing occupation that takes as much courage and endurace as Frodo needed to get to Mount Doom. It’s just a whole lot less glamorous.

    Also, I’d like to point out that many virtues often associated with women are now often frowned upon in women. Compassion, sensitivity to crudeness, tenderness, grace — society seems to consider them weaknessess now instead of strength, and I find that very, very sad.

    I’m glad these anti-feminazi comments have been posted. I often get sneered at for my views, but here I found comments echoing my own feelings on the matter. Thanks.

  13. Jaye Patrick Avatar
    Jaye Patrick

    Yep, okay, I’ll go with that.

    I remember, late 70s, enrolling in a two week elective for electronics. I was the only girl in the class and spent those two weeks fielding sexist comments and getting harassed for doing a ‘male’ elective. Not even the teacher would do anything about it – he agreed; I did not. I sat in my corner and built my crystal radio and other small devices and ignored the lot of them. Since my devices all worked – even when I had to fix them because of sabotage – he couldn’t fail me.

    You could say it was ‘the time’, but I would disagree with that too. There is no ‘time’ for politeness and simple courtesy. What they saw was a female intruding in their male arena. Nor did the harassment stop when the elective was finished. I copped it from those boys all the way through high school. Typically, I still ignored them, even when I signed up for computers. At no time did I think I couldn’t do it, at no time did I think they were right, at no time did I think to give up because it was all just too hard. What I did think, I can’t say here because it’s PG rated…

    I was taught by the best feminist example of them all never to give up what I believe in, and that I could do anything I set my mind to – my mother. I hope I’m following her example in teaching my nieces the same thing.

  14. Sarah Avatar

    I’ll admit to not knowing much about feminism, other than I never want a job because I checked female in the optional gender section of the application. As an engineering co-op student not only were most of my classmates girls but most of my bosses and several profs.

    This combination left me basically speechless in the face of my roommate (women’s studies major) ranting about how oppressed canadian women are .. her boyfriend nodding along mindlessly. Her audience was a female engineering graduate student working with a female supervisor and myself.
    The worst part was that her main reason for feeling oppressed that day was that the government wasn’t going to send her student loan money after she dropped out that term!

    Not that anyone has to choose a sciencey field to prove how "liberated they might be, but no one ever moved to stop or discourage either of us in any way. The hypocrisy was furthered when my "feminist" room mate ran as part of a ticket for student federation council (prez, vp-education, vp-finance, etc) and drew the slot on the presidential ballot yet couldn’t manage to answer any questions coherently when she appeared at pre-election Q and A sessions.
    Just my two (or five) cents.

  15. Peggy Kurilla Avatar
    Peggy Kurilla

    I’m in.

    Let this one example serve to explain why. Some years ago (early 1990’s, I think), there was a plane crash. There was a malfunction, and the plane fell, killing something like 170 people.

    While I was watching the news report about it (and feeling a numb shock at the event; these things hadn’t happened very often at the time), the reporters interviewed a woman who said, "What hasn’t been reported is that 69 of those people were women."

    At that point, whatever I felt about the crash went right out the window, while I stared in angry shock at the screen. I couldn’t believe what I’d just heard. Here was a classic example of equality–170 people died, and all were equally deserving of our grief–but by singling out those 69 women as somehow special or worthy of additional comment, that woman had just taken equality and slapped it in the face. Which was when I stopped identifying myself as a feminist.

    On the other hand, my personal experience has never matched anything that the rabid feminist authors (Daley, Dworkin, etc.) have written about. I’ve found that by doing my job well (whatever that job may be), I can earn the respect of those I work with, male and female. And I can earn a paycheck that reflects the quality of the work I do. What else, really, can I ask for?

    So yes, include me in.

  16. Naia Lena Avatar
    Naia Lena

    That’s absolutely right.

    I consider myself a feminist, personally — but not a feminazi! I like men. Really — and I’m all for equality…after all, isn’t that what feminism is supposed to be?

  17. Jay Avatar

    The only feminist-related things I’ve ever had to deal with are the people who look at me weird for wearing boys’ shorts and baggy shirts all the time. I just stick my tongue out at them and run along.

    But despite my lack of experience, I’d like to join with you. Onward!

  18. delta Avatar

    It’s true! I believe firmly in a lot of feminist ideals, but I don’t call myself a ‘feminist,’ because the word has come to have far too many negative connotations for me.

    I will never forget an article I read during my first year of university, that dealt with the differences between the programs of study chosen by men and women. The implication was that women in general don’t have the ‘courage’ to pursue science, engineering, business, or any other traditionally male-dominated field. PROOF UNDENIABLE that the feminist movement still has a long way to go.

    Well, $%#& that. The linguistics program at my school is about 90% female, but I didn’t choose it because, being a girl, I’ve been frightened away from engineering like some timid little bunny. I chose it because I find language fascinating. I would wager that the others in the program feel the same way.

    (And don’t get me started on how insulting it is to be told I’m a coward for pursuing a field that interests me instead of one that leads directly to a specific job, which is the primary motive given by most of my friends, male and female, who *are* in business or engineering.)

    Feminism should be about choice. Pressuring women to sacrifice the things they want in favour of the things they ‘should’ want is just another form of oppression.

  19. Jim Woosley Avatar
    Jim Woosley


    I’ll have to confess that I had a "train wreck" in the middle of that one.

    Not that I disagree with anything you said — or anything that most of the responders have said so far.

    However, your comments about the Falun Gong were the first negative comments I’ve ever heard about that organization which did not originate with the government of China during their repression of the movement, and I’m still reeling.

    My amittedly atypical Sensi is very much into religious esoterica (he oftern discusses the eastern religion bases underlying most martial arts, the advantages of Coptic over western Christianity, and practices the Nazarene lifestyle a la Samson), and during the peak of FG repression by the Chinese a few years ago brought some Falon Gong speakers to the Dojo to teach their version of Qui Jong.

    Perhaps offine, I’d like to compare your sources on the subject with what I’ve learned from him. What you described — and the information on the link you provided, which I admit I’ve only had time to skim so far — is widely variant from anything I’ve heard about the movement. Occult practices? Well, by western standards, the whole concept of Qui Jong probably falls into the shallow waters around the occult. So does transubstantiation and a belief in demons and exorcists, which remain Catholic doctrines (and I have encountered some modern expressions of belief in demons in Protestant contexts).
    As for the rest, as I say, I have grossly different perspectives from differerent sources whom I trust highly (though, truth to tell, i’ve always kept a "grain of salt" handy when talking to Sensi, so….). I REALLY need to work this through, but not this morning.

    Anyway, that said, please don’t presume my "train wreck" in any way invalidates anything else that Holly — or the many other corresondents whove responded positively.

    The essay is very powerful. To paraphrase Spider Robinsion, you’ve epitomized the "Heinlein Heroine" — strong, educated, self reliant, a full partner to her mate of any gender — and recognizing that her ability to mother children is an essential element of her identity, not a vehicle for male oppression. As Spider noted in his infamous polemic "Rah, Rah, R.A.H.," "The thing I find difficult to believe it that I have to convince FEMINISTS that such women exist."

    Once again, thanks for saying what need to be said (and thanks for moving me off of the mark again).

  20. Nick Avatar

    I’ll join, if you’ll have me.

    The so-called feminists don’t want me in their club. They say they do, but they actually want this figment of their imagination that has my name and my face. They don’t want me.

    They believe that women are superior by virtue of the fact that they’re women, and the logical extension of that is that women who act like men are somehow warped by the villainous patriarchy into acting inferior. They want me to turn all feminine and touchy-feely, and turn my back on all this violent football stuff.

    Well screw that. I like football. I’m comfortable in jeans and I’d be more comfortable still if I could get the world to see me as a man. I’m not a "traitor" – I still have a woman’s birth certificate and self-interest gives me a stake in getting rid of the injustices this might cause. I’m just not interested in becoming something I’m not just to please someone’s idea of what a woman should be.

    Ironic that a movement that started out wanting choice for women has started confining them in boxes.

    Yes, I’ll join.

  21. Shermel Avatar

    I remember at school, when I was about 14, we had a little career day in English. Nothing special we all just had to say what we wanted to be when we grew up (I think they just forgot to plan a proper lesson).

    One of my friend said that she wanted to get married and have children, that was her aim in life. She wanted to be a Mum (which she did and is very happt with her choice).

    The teacher went ape. My friend was ruining her life, destroying her potential, wasting her education and condeming herself to a life of servitude. My freind was very upset and we were all well narked at this outburst. Afer that we refused to join in with the lesson; we didn’t want to be forced into her little acceptable boxes of what women should be in the ‘modern’ world (this was 1993ish).

    That was the first time I came across these mentalists. I chose to ignore then after that. Just nod, smile and walk away and let them talk to themselves.

  22. Andrew Avatar

    Amen, Holly!

    Might I suggest a couple books on the issue: "Who Stole Feminism?" and "The War Against Boys," both by Christina Hoff Summers. She’s one of the few scholars on feminism that I can actually stomach.

  23. baka_kit Avatar


    It’s about time. About damn time. We need to reclaim feminism from the feminists.

    In womens’ studies programs throughout the country–and perhaps the world–women are told how oppressed they are. Nevermind that we live in the best, the most free, country in the world–whether you’re a man or a woman–that message of despair is repeated over and over.

    They don’t realize that by telling women that they are victims, and claiming victim status for women who make bad choices, they are actually regressing women. Only by letting women take the consequences of their own decisions will the ultimate aims of feminism be realized.

    There’s actually a movement that’s trying to do that; a more libertarian form of feminism called individualist feminism. There’s a website about it at ifeministDOTcom or ifeministsDOTcom–one of the two. It’s about women making choices, even if they’re the wrong ones–because only by having the freedom to make choices will women truly be free.

  24. Ter Matthies Avatar
    Ter Matthies

    I prefer "humanist".

    If I actually have to discuss gender topics, I am probably speaking with someone who will stop listening if they hear anything like the word feminist; and that’s long before I could make a statement about an issue important to me.

    I don’t appreciate "feminazi", but if that’s what the speaker really means, then it’s a signal to me. After all, if we insist on regulating what people say, well, where would that lead?

    The last time "feminazi" cropped up around me in speech, we were compiling a thank-you list for a bride. Her husband cringed at one of the male/female gift-giving couples listed with separate last names. "Oh great," he said, "Another feminazi who won’t use her husband’s name."

    Actually, she is published in her field under her own name. Using it is just part of her preferred social identity.

    Saying "Ms" gets a similar reaction where I live. Since these two social customs ("Ms" and choice of last name for married women) are insignificant compared to economics and health issues, I am backing away from the "f" word.

    Because really, I don’t want to be divided from people any more than I have to be.

  25. Quan Avatar

    Wow, I love that word, Nonny: "feminazis."

    I have also heard that they encourage women not to have babies while they’re young so that they can go out and compete with men. While I think that women should have a choice to choose having children or having a career, I think it’s wrong that these people are also telling women that they can have babies whenever they want. We all know from 9th grade biology that women CAN’T have babies after a certain age. It’s very misleading.

    In the end, however, like all non-profit organizations, they want to stay in business. Ironic? Yes. They want to stay funded so they have to keep on fighting for something… Something outrages and something that will keep the membership alive. Something big so that more people will fund them. People wouldn’t be as excited if they fought over the same thing over and over again.

    It’s the same thing with racial groups. While I think they don’t mislead people as much as feminists group do, they still raise issues to stay in business.

    I think it’s time to call an end to everything. Learn about our past problems in school, then learn how to live righteously. Period. Raising different issues up will only open old wounds.

  26. Robert A. Sloan Avatar
    Robert A. Sloan

    You did manage to shock me, Holly. I knew that there have been some crazy ideas sloshing around feminism right along with the good ones — equal pay and rights, good, stamp out anything that ever mentions sex, bad. There was one feminist group I knew in the 70s that argued irrationally but passionately that explicit gay male magazines like Blueboy and Drummer were degrading to women and portrayed them as sex objects. This went right past me because those mags had no women in them, never mentioned women, had nothing to do with women and everything to do with gay male bodybuilders enthusiastically showing off the results of what was usually seven hour daily workouts for compliments and cash.

    Maybe they felt left out.

    It goes along with the regulate everything mentality and the punishment for anything fun mentality and the heavy conformist mentality. That streak was always there — when it was the vote and other major social issues the temperance women got into it and had the money to help.

    But I didn’t think it went so far as to defend a child killer on the grounds of her gender. She was crazy, she was homicidal, she complained in some article that she needed her meds and couldn’t get them and that was a sort of basis for something half sensible. Don’t leave small children alone in the care of self admitted homicidal loonies who haven’t had their meds sort of makes a bitter sense — and that sounds a lot like some things some convicted male murderers say too. They know that it’s crazy and wrong. She wouldn’t be the first to say she couldn’t help it or *try* to run away from the situation, and fail, and be homicidal loony.

    But it’s not about her gender. It’s just murder. I wouldn’t want a babysitter of either sex that was homicidal loony or tortured animals or anything like that.

    Robert and Ari >^..^<

  27. Jabronie Avatar

    Very well said! I am with you completely on this one. I have a very high respect for woman and their rights as I do for people of all sexes, national origins, and religious beliefs. I agree there are better ways to make gains in equality than some feminists have offered and it saddens me to watch them set back woman’s rights in favor of retaliation. You and all women have my support.

  28. Nonny Avatar

    I say it’s time we — the sane women of America and the men who love us — reclaim feminism from the lunatics who are currently tarnishing it.

    America isn’t the only country with these loonies. As there are a number of FM members in other countries, it seems a little excluding to put it as just "sane women of America." I doubt this was your intention, but it came across that way to me. ๐Ÿ™‚

    Personally, I tend to call these raging, man-hating "feminists" feminazis. Calling them feminists to me just furthers the idea that they are. I don’t consider extremists of any sort, whether religious, political, social, or otherwise, as what they claim to be, because they’re often hypocrites.

    I’ve heard your revised version of feminism echoed by many feminists I personally know. In a way, it’s more for humanism than feminism, because feminism by its very name suggests an orientation on women. Modern feminism seems to have changed from the feminist movement of the 1970s.

    The feminazis who try to defend anything wrong a woman does just because she’s a woman and "couldn’t help herself" or some other bullshit just drive me up the wall. That and their aggressive man-hating gives feminism a bad name, and furthers the idea that feminists are bitches. Also that women in general are weak and helpless, which is exactly the stereotype feminists are trying to work against. Grr.

    I like men. I’m marrying one. I’m very happy with my man, even though he confuses me sometimes. I don’t hate men, and I get tired of the "the world would be better if women were in charge!" feminazi propaganda. The world wouldn’t be better if women were in charge. Look how teen girls treat each other in high school. Constant backstabbing and badmouthing. Women are women’s worst enemies, not men. I don’t believe either matriarchy or patriarchy is inherently "good." I’m all for equality, but not on the level of making men and women identical. With equality, there also needs to be recognization that men and women are not the same. They’re different, and on deeper levels than the obvious physicalities and social training. Unisex isn’t right, except for those people that honestly choose it and it’s right for them. Equality, where society is open to everyone, in whatever place they want to be in (eg, some women honestly want to stay home and be housewives, so do some men).

    Whew. That got long, and hopefully it’s not as incoherent as I think it is. Thanks for posting this, Holly. ๐Ÿ™‚

  29. Jean Avatar

    The more I learned about feminism, the less sense it made to me. Generally speaking these days, anything identified with feminism sends me looking 90 degrees or more in the other direction.

    I’m with you!

  30. ValMarie Avatar

    Woohoo! I’m with you, Holly!

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